Ep97 Bill Kenney - The Power of Perception: Brand is Your Strongest B2B Lever

The Power of Perception: Brand is Your Strongest B2B Lever - Bill Kenney | Strategy + Action - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKLfAUgJOsw

Transcript:
(00:00) today on the show strategy plus action equals why looks matter great coaches and Consultants like you have the ability to change people's lives and transform entire organizations and your impact can often go far beyond the client you work with one of the reasons I love working with coaches and Consultants is because of that ripple effect this show is here to highlight your expertise and Empower you with resources and new ideas to grow your business welcome to strategy and action Bill Kenny is on the show today
(00:36) and wow we have a deep dive into this full immersive idea of brand specifically B2B B2B Tech even more specific but we not only you know broaden out in terms of B2B across the board you know this business to business World um but it it matters so much across all brands coaches Consultants can take what we're talking about here and apply it look at their own businesses where am I utilizing some of these things where am I falling short I love this subject so much it's it's fascinating and interesting to me
(01:18) because it combines this idea of you know visual elements why they matter so much and and that's across the board of course video and graphics and your website and all that stuff but all the way down to how you show up and all that it combines all those visual elements to the the psychological components of both your your your your company culture what it represents everyone in your organization but the other side as well you know getting into how your prospects your customers your clients respond to all these different elements and when
(02:02) you really dig in the way bill and his team at Focus lab his team at OD the way they dig in and fully immerse you when you go through this with them uh in this idea of brand from all these elements it's what it really takes to get a good handle on this idea of brand as well as an execution of it out in the world I love this conversation because it combines all of these things and we certainly go down rabbit holes with this but Bill provides such an amazing context and picture and example after example of his company of clients of
(02:47) more known companies all of that to really paint these pictures for us on why it's so important you're absolutely going to love this conversation um and and it's really important to take this in if you're running a company if you're at any level responsible for that brand and have those decisions of a company it's so important to take this in and especially in this B2B space there's so much opportunity to stand out so many companies are afraid to do so and afraid to be human and afraid to step out of
(03:28) the norm at all and we're all humans you know we have to remember that in the most you know dry Industries at all it's still people interacting with each other and that is a wonderful opportunity to connect to them and you know build fans and customers and clients of your business all right let's jump in Bill Kenny welcome to the show yo yo yo what's up what's up oh man excited to to talk branding to talk rebranding I'm so I'm so glad suzan Taylor King the wonderful the amazing Suzanne Taylor
(04:10) King introduced us we had a a great talk last week week before you know how time goes whatever that was yeah but yeah I'm excited I've been digging into your book conquer your Rebrand and whe whether you like it or not we're going to get into into promoting that just because people got to know they got to know the the truth uh that is going into that and I I love it so much so I I really want to focus our conversation on this idea of the the visual aspects of branding rebranding because it's it's funny I
(04:50) feel like the pendulum has shifted too far the other way meaning brand used to be like oh that equals logo and everyone's out there talking hey Brand isn't just a logo you're absolutely right it's not but I think it's too far the other way that we don't focus enough at least in the the typical conversation around the visual aspects of the stuff it is so much bigger and I want to dig into to some of those other aspects but I'm excited to have you on here because you're somebody
(05:23) who really understands the full branding picture but also really is that visual aspect which is so important so before we dig in even more down that road though I want I want to give people a little uh background you know your CEO of focus lab and OD and what are those agencies companies and and where are you right now so people understand a little bit why bill is the one on here talking about this amazing topic yeah I appreciate it so um I am as you would all know now Bill Bill Kenny uh CEO of focus lab and OD those are two
(06:02) different agencies and I can talk about why those are different Etc later uh I'm essentially a kid that grew up in a small town and liked art drawing uh went to school didn't know what I wanted to do became an art major and turned that love for all things visual into a design career right so we've been building uh Focus lab was the first agency that was still growing that started 14 years go so that's how far in we are ODI just passed its oneye birthday uh so we're we're well we're
(06:38) well into this journey of what it looks like to build an agency and now very specifically a brand agency what it's like to serve from those early days which is like Mom and Pop shops right when I was just trying to get out there into the world to now working with all the way up to series D and then public we don't do a lot of publicly traded company work it's generally our best fit is in this like series B to series D Zone but then OD is born to serve seed stage much smaller uh kind of upand cominging businesses and that's that's
(07:10) where we sit uh I guess I would also mention it's primarily B2B tech for us it doesn't mean we don't do work outside of that sector but that's kind of how we're positioned and and that's us in a nutshell team of 25 fully remote team members based in the US I love it yeah and and that is an important distinction because that is where we're going to focus our conversation today too in that B2B world when we're talking about branding and rebranding and certainly elements apply outside of that but the reason I love
(07:45) this conversation I love the book you've written and the what your agency does is because it's a very underserved Market this B2B world when it comes to visual elements branding rebranding and all of that so so I'm excited about that and you know you you talk about you know who the companies you serve but they also go on to be you know post rebranding you know sure yes just massive too so I want I want to make sure people understand that context you're setting these folks up to you know catching them track record yeah
(08:23) yeah we're catching them at different parts of their Journey like I said sometimes it's series a has a different type of pain Point sometimes it's series C series D ramping up for IPO different type of paino but we are a part of that Journey that they're goinging up the mountain and our job is to help them get up there better Shera if you will right like how are we going to help you get to that next stage through the thing that we know which is brand which is really impactful and really powerful when the
(08:48) companies that realize that would then partner with us to help them achieve those things so yeah we've seen some people go on to hit crazy Milestones right from a series B all the way to being public now for 3 years and I see earnings reports come out on CNBC and I'm like that company is so huge now right and I could never take credit for that and I would never want to but I know we're a little element in that Journey maybe we gave them some better boots to get from here to there kind of thing you know that's that's cool it's
(09:17) actually really rewarding oh yeah that gives me CH thinking about it because yeah that same kind of thing when you when you work with a client you see them go on too great just and just again knowing that you had that a piece of that you were whether it's something you physically created a conversation you had an idea that sparked for them where they took a direction you're just you're a piece of that I that's oh that's so fun it's pretty yeah it's pretty cool uh I was in the city uh last week uh side
(09:48) not we went to the panta concert in Madison Square Garden that was awesome uh my son and I he's 14 now but we were walking from Penn Station we were walking down to Time Square and there was a big billboard of client that we had worked with and the logo very specifically that we had done and it's cool to be able to I was like hey look Riker look like my company like we made that like I know that client like we worked with them and he's like oh man you know then he thinks like you're a rock star dude like you must feel so
(10:17) proud I'm like it's pretty cool it's pretty cool that's awesome yeah I get what I get from Lately from from my kids are just like why aren't you famous D like cuz there's so many like actors I've worked with or something you know that they'll be in a commercial like oh it's Dave holy crap that's awesome he's and they're just like you freaking know everybody why aren't you fameous why what's going on like I don't know we're the behind the scenes characters that
(10:42) help people and that really fits my personality and like the core of my DNA which is to like help and support people I get a lot of energy out of that I don't need to be front center um I get my joy out of lifting other people up and just playing my part yeah me either um says the guy who puts himself front of a camera and puts a show yeah yeah of course yeah I'm totally behind the scenes No I'm I enjoy being behind the scenes and I'm obnoxious enough to put myself in the front of the scene as well
(11:15) so there we same but I I love this so I'd love to get I'm going to do this next but I want to talk high level your definition of brand and everything that that means before we dig into really some of the visual aspects of it but something that that you're you're your book does well and I'd love for you to kind of help us with this right now I in conquer your Rebrand you know I mean here's this handbook right here's this this is the Playbook to go do this or at least fully understand it but first
(11:54) there's like this mental hurdle you got to get through to even understand as as a decision maker why this is even important that's right can you kind of walk us through cuz I think that would help our listeners as well set them up for why they should even take all this in today yes yeah uh so I I'm well aware of that hurdle having been now building this business for 14 years and and hearing and working with clients uh so much so that the forward in the book is written by a past client about that
(12:27) hurdle for themselves right so hearing it from third party not me and then chapter one is also devoted to this hurdle right which is which is to say what's the ROI is it actually valuable is this just kind of like marketing fun visual things or is this actually a core element to my business does this matter at the fundamental level of the business my strong argument and hopefully Bob who wrote the forward makes the clear argument that his first business he didn't care about it right it was penny pinching and it was
(13:04) building a product customers care about the product they care about the tool they're using I need to solve their paino specifically that is still true but what some Founders can can miss is on top of that and broader than that is brand it is the business what it stands for what it cares about because although the product is important what about hiring what about culture what about trying to position yourself in a certain way so you meet customers where they are and then you serve up a product right like the
(13:36) product is just part of a suite of things that the business needs to do and brand is what defines how you go through and do those things what you should build what you shouldn't build right um as a brand agency part of our brand is branding now that gets super meta but that does help inform what we're not going to do we're not going to do all these other things even if our product could do those things because now we're going to start to get off brand right so all that's to say what people need to realize is yes
(14:10) brand is more than a logo even though I called that out as the thing I pointed to in New York City it becomes the north star of the organization right so when you're sitting down and you're saying what are we going to do next or this thing we're struggling with you you got to have a thing that you can look to that helps align you in real life people do this through religion I didn't plan to say this but it came top of mind right like sometimes people need a thing that grounds them and brings them back
(14:35) to Center brand will do that for the organization it will Define what you should and shouldn't be doing where you're going now if you think about a boat that's rowing and everyone's rowing together right smooth less friction you're going far and fast without brand as a North star your mission your values how you hire why you hire the products that you build how you serve your customer all these things those ORS are going in different directions you might be successful to some degree people will pass you you'll
(15:05) wonder why right these things come back to Brand the issue is brand alone is a word like like literally what the [ __ ] does that mean right like it's kind of like one of those words it means a thousand things to a thousand people that's the challenge and hopefully my efforts in the forward of the book in chapter one is to help break that word down a little bit and just to say all right let's look at some companies that really heavily invest in brand even maybe let's get away from the Cokes and the Nikes and the apples those
(15:34) are obvious let's start to think about B2B specifically let's think about really uniquely positioned Brands uh I'll just use MailChimp because I use it in the book as an example right a newsletter tool all I gave a [ __ ] about was building a better newsletter and invested nothing in brand they wouldn't care about Freddy as their mascot which is the monkey that becomes adored as a cultural icon with people in that space both internally and externally in their business they have personality the way
(16:04) they write and they speak whether it's social media website in person adopts the energy of the brand right it prescribes how that company should act beyond the product wouldn't you know into it comes along and buys them for like 12 billion in the book I make the argument on paper the value of the organization is this what's that additional money coming from where where what is that mystery value on top of the assets is brand into it as an old school B2B I got my tie on everything's tight needs some of that to push forward in
(16:45) the new world mail chimp's a perfect example of a tool they need in their Suite yes they need that tool they also want that type of brand in their Suite too so they don't just continue to be old sty tax tools they're paying for a brand there's value there right um and that's what's and that's what's interesting is it is we're we're in that space right now to where it's it feels like a transition time where people are they can feel it exactly what you just described there's
(17:17) value to this but yet where's the line item how do you quantify that Y and and we're getting to that people are scrambling in the background to do so yeah whether it's you know social media metric to this and this equals this and this attention and valued at x amount of dollars but we're not there yet and maybe we're never there that's a great point we're heading in that direction right to that to the point of the the the mental hurdle of Roi and all of that yeah we need to be very
(17:52) careful to not say if I can't measure a dollar one year from now then that the the ROI of brand is not there gravity is pretty hard to like I don't see it I don't feel it around me right now it doesn't mean it's not real in doing a thing right so like brand is kind of one of these elusive hard to see hard to feel on The Daily year over year that hidden compounding effect starts to show up in real life why do I buy these headphones over a different set of headphones from a different supplier
(18:25) because they're Apple they're not better they're actually not better my other Bose headphones are just as good if not better but I want these to go with the Apple products I'm buying brand at that point so now you're getting like a one plus 1 equals 3 right they're able to upcharge on this because I will upay for brand but how are they going to measure that Apple can probably just common sense create that Association now but if you're a B2B company right now and you invest in that and you're trying to
(18:54) measure that dollar for dooll one year out becomes really hard that's actually a little bit of a trap you should not think that way these things take a long time to compound if I'm a really nice guy I might not see the results of whatever that is in the first six months or something I'll damn sure know it when everyone shows up of a funeral kind of thing right right like but you got to give it time not everybody wants to give [ __ ] time that's really important right yeah and and I don't know you know does it
(19:26) mean it gets into into really interesting territory because does it mean that the the the most Progressive leaders potentially most successful in running a company like that has to be the kind of person who just kind of goes on gut at a certain level yes of I'm I'm just feeling this I need something I know we need something to w around and do this and you know be that you know Apple of the the concrete industry in in Michigan do they need to be kind of wired that way a little gut feeling being able to just go in order to really
(20:15) pull that off so what we see is there are there are definitely two types of people there are people that need measurement to people that don't need measurement so it is helpful if they're wired that way I don't think they need to be wired that way but let me share story that will help kind of maybe illuminate this from an additional perspective so we were on a client onsite that means we go out with the client and for the first day of their project we kind of are in person we're doing exercises we're building
(20:45) relationship therefore building trust these projects are long and long and often challenging uh trust is a key element in that um but what happened is we went on break we we came off some exercises and it's just some downtime right so people go to the bathroom they go get some food whatever that is and as we're left sitting around this table waiting for people to come back there's probably like eight of us total one of the people on the client's side look across the table to me in like now picture like uh
(21:14) highrise in Seattle All Glass kind of walls big uh wooden desk right and they're looking across hey Bill I have a question for you okay sure yeah we're on break no pressure why does it seem like everybody that you work with goes on to it goes down the list right raise more Capital be acquired blah you know success why does it seem that that is the case what I what I wouldn't do and I didn't do was say like oh that's because we're we're so awesome and we help people look so good and sound so good
(21:47) that they crush it that that's a part of it but that's not the root reason why those people are successful what I told them was and I was on the spot but this is true people that can understand the power of brand they don't have to know it in their blood they don't have to be wired like we're talking about a minute ago but they have to trust enough that there is something there that they should be doing are on the right path right it's actually their ability to step into brand whether they hired us whether they
(22:20) hired another company but their ability to understand the relevance and the importance of brand sets them on a different path so again like do you need to be wired in that way oh gosh it sure is helpful it lets you get past those early kind of like I don't think I need this blah blah blah and pushing it off for 10 years but like if we all just sit back and you look around at the things that are successful businesses that are successful they are driven by brand right yes they're big names and they're
(22:49) easy for me to call out Disney the coca-colas of the world Apple again Nike Patagonia your biggest companies it's not a product necessarily right like thisy has a big amusement park and I might like their movies but ultimately you're buying into their ecosystem which is buying into the brand itself or you actually or are adverse to that I have people that hate Apple my brother-in-law right Avid I will not buy apple he he doesn't want the brand but what I'm saying is if we all just removed this idea of measuring the
(23:22) return we're thinking that it's just kind of like marketing kind of tin foil hat stuff and unnecessary and we just look around us you will be able to easily Define the companies that win are definitely focusing on brand think about car companies right they got their brand right Mercedes has their brand right people buy that because it's a perception play Let's also sit on that for a minute like branding is a game of perception and that's not a bad thing it's not deception it's not deceiving
(23:54) people but it is perception if a lawyer pulls up to your office and he's driving a broke down Civic you're kind of like I don't know if this guy can do a good job right that's so different if you're a concrete company yeah maybe the I hate to say it this way but maybe the bar is a little bit lower maybe it's okay for the truck to be dirty or the the van of trucks that come up for the big job to be dirty but like if the operation is tight maybe all the people seem to dress the same the dudes have the same collar shirt
(24:25) with the same logo and the logo doesn't look like your brother-in-law it and the systems that you log into actually look modern day age and when people call they get somebody friendly on the phone that's now all a brand experience that [ __ ] will allow you to charge more to beat out your competition all that stuff that's brand so there you go does everybody need to be wired that way no but somehow they got to be able to see the other side red pill or blue pill you get somehow you got to get the pill in once
(24:57) you get the pill you're like oh my God I see it yeah yeah yeah you got to get there that's a I think that's that's a really good distinction you can you can easy and flow and like oh yeah get it cool let's do this thing or you need to sit back and you know do this and get convinced yes but if anybody will actually take in what you just described and it they can be the most and Apple Disney Nike all the ones that are usually shoved down their throats which you know just because maybe they're just
(25:38) counter that way but they're going to have their version right% the local coffee shop that they love and will always go to and bring their friends when they come into town they've got their version and and maybe that's the getting them there that it takes of like well what about this what about that you know and uh oh okay and it really does become like you were talking about earlier becomes this shorthand you know when you can point to the logo that represents this whole thing or yes the green shirts that
(26:13) represent here's it's not just because they're green it's because of this meaning we have and here's what it helps with that shorthand and we're just wired as consumers and people when we like something we want to like it as much as we can you know we want to you know give me the the resources to display this brand or a little something associated with right this thing aligns to me I am a part of this thing I'm a part of this coffee shop I like this coffee shop because what is it is it because the
(26:52) staff there maybe they're a little gritty and they feel more blue collar and down toe and you like that guess what that's a part of that company's Rand it's not it's not about logo but at the end of the day it is about like all the things what is that yeah what is that business stand for and if you can get everything kind of going back to the point earlier rowing in the same direction all right if we like if the coffee Shop's brand is gritty and blue collar and all that then everything
(27:18) should emulate that start to finish the menu the way we associate and have experience here with our customers the type of customers we attract what our building looks like you wouldn't want it to look modern right that's going to push my brother-in-law to use him again away right dude rolls up in a truck in his car heart he wants a certain type of place and that I think what we need to realize is that is also the brand at play it's not just big business can use brand to drive prices up which was
(27:50) another example earlier it just is how we associate I think your shorthand point is great G going back to the the concrete company or local contractors in town right what if I all so that actually is one there's one in town they drive their bands around and there's a there's a signature color on it that you just associate you know that is that company and by the way they even carry themselves you're like okay that looks like a legit operation even before calling them which I've never called them I can assume maybe
(28:20) their price point is a little bit higher I could even assume the type of demographic and the type of clientele they go after again that's like that is the brand at play and if you can get that right that's a really big superpower in your business as opposed to well people don't give a [ __ ] about that what I the shirt I wear doesn't matter they just want me to come kill bugs in their house I'm a bug guy it's like well yeah it is that but there's so much more opportunity I guess there's
(28:47) another way to say it that's the that's the floor yes you can be fine your business can sustain that's the floor there's all this opportunity here you can get to the second floor you can get to a third floor you can find your way into the you can get over the house kind of thing if you start to think about brand yeah and and that's a piece to this it why I really want to talk about this visual aspect and I promise everybody we're almost there really digging it deep but but there's so many layers I just love
(29:16) it so much and it really is that it's like if you want to be basic Bug Guy be that and and and that's fine and maybe you're your little differentiator is Bargain Basement or you can call him 24/7 or whatever but don't get mad at Big branded bug guy who's getting all your business sure like you decided by making those choices you positioned yourself in this spot by doing nothing you've positioned yourself and just you got to let that in and that's that's business and again there's more layers to this I'm going to
(29:59) go into especially for this B2B land with everything but so let's let's sum up for folks this idea we've talked a lot about we've talked around it and what brand is not and how you shouldn't think about it what is this core element what is brand and then specifically B2B take on that it's the big loaded question right like what's the if I open up the book was the definition of brand and at this point honestly for my brand I should have my same answer every time sentence that I just have memorized and I say it
(30:38) I don't but ultimately the definition of brand is the sum of the experiences and perceptions that a customer is going to have with your company that's it the they're going to have lots of experiences little experiences they're going to have the sum of the parts is again like small or it's WI but it is their feelings about your business is is ultimately your brand so coming back to your point if you're just kind of solo print or bug guy and you're just 24 hours a day low price that's your brand that's what
(31:15) people will consider your brand and your perception will be built off of that and that's it that that is your brand whether you want to say that's not that is what it is Comcast their brand is we serve a th000 people we give really shitty customer service and like you know like that's their brand whether they want to say it is or it isn't like that's literally what their brand is so much so that they have to change their name to xinity right so that people don't associate to that anymore through a name
(31:42) Association um so it it is that brand is is so big and so wide it's ultimately like it's what the people say it is that are on the other side which is why customer experience matters so much and all these other things not just the product yeah it's it's almost synonymous to with reputation right it's very CL much better way to say it literally is like your company's reputation if the reputation is great and stands for X that is ultimately the brand and then you would want to again make everything
(32:15) align to that if you also want it to be that right you get all things going in that direction well yeah and that's that's I mean that's just like it's so it's so fun and messy right cuz yeah just like reputation it's out of your control in the sense of it really is the world's response just like you know my reputation out there I can do certain things and I can show up in a certain way and be purposeful with that but ultimately my reputation is what my friends think it is the people I meet on
(32:53) the street you know and so just like you're saying then it's a back and forth right so I can get I can sit in a boardroom with you and your team and we can decide okay this is our brand now this is what we're going to do and we're going to roll that out but then does it land right yes and with all that intent and everything that we put out there then there's you know you get the data back and that's another piece of this to be really purposeful with get the data back it is that Landing the way we intended and if not
(33:28) not okay wow this is better than we' ever hoped this is weird because they're thinking this way or we totally missed the Mark we're crashing and burning let's pivot you know but it is I think that's the other piece of it too that when you alluded to the fact that well you stated this takes time think of it long term this is part of the reason why not just because it takes time to grow but it is an iteration about back and forth with the world in your company that's right absolutely right and are
(34:04) you living up to your promise or not I can say my brand to the world is being a good guy that wants to help people if I don't live up to that promise that is not my brand people are like that guy's a liar actually his brand is a liar he's a fake right in the same way that um you know if there's a a new electric forward Save the Planet company but they're not actually living by those ideals then we don't believe that anymore so no longer does that brand resonate but if you take like a
(34:33) Patagonia Save the Planet everything they do feels aligned to save the planet probably even deeper than we even see behind the door right decisions they make and all that stuff so therefore that brand is aligned with what they say it is they live up to their promise people adopt their promise they support their promise and cheer their promise right I want I want to buy Patagonia clothes because of that now you create a little culture now that brand is becoming a flywheel right now it's becoming powerful you don't live up to
(35:03) the promise doesn't matter which is your your word is perfect reputation I'm GNA steal it perfect my my gift to you thank you sir yeah and and so where your company comes in your agency it like you spoke about ear like you're you're big and in that area right like you could touch other parts of the but you're there for brand or Rebrand of a company what where does it come into play in terms of those parameters when you're working with someone in terms of this broader reach of brand in ter terms of you know
(35:49) what you want your mission to be and what you want to display to the world I imagine there's some companies who have that that shit's dialed in hey this is what we we have we love this we need a visual version of it and then other you know startups you know Tech startup who they've got a product going but they haven't really thought about these kind of things is that part of something like the onsite where you're going to start pulling that information out of them yes so that all happens in the strategy
(36:16) phase duh no surprise there but you're right it is um it's kind of all walks of life on that front it is now here's where it gets interesting because like brand strategy in business strategy it's almost impossible to find the line there right but we can't and should never come in and just change a business's entire strategy no you shouldn't be trying to save the planet that trend is going away you should actually be doing this right that's like that's up to the the owners
(36:47) Founders board to be deciding what we can help them do though is pull on threads and and sus out what is most important maybe they're saying seven different things and it's all over the place it's hard to determine what is most important oh okay we sus that out this is the Core Essence of what you're trying to do now let's build narrative and story to support that and language and visuals and so yeah we're trying to help people get to the roote and then build back up from that because it is
(37:15) often all over the place if it's completely unknown which would be all the way down to the like it's a three-person team super early startup that is the biggest perception play game which is like we don't we and they don't yet know where they're ultimately going to go over the next 10 years but they got to look the part for at least where they are right now they have a single product and it does this let's make it look as good as it can look so people take you seriously and then you can fundraise and
(37:45) as you move up the ladder you will realize oh we were going to do this we're actually going to do that and we're really in love with going on this Mission we're going to Mars now it's no longer the moon okay now we can go deep on brand with that more Clear Vision so that's a little bit of a wonky answer but we do help people navigate that and a lot of it honestly is a bit of like brand therapy it's really like people think they know what it is and you talk more and you're like oh that's interesting
(38:15) tell me why did you make that DEC oh and then all a sudden there there can be moments of like oh that's actually what matters most so let me tell you about hours if I was going to break it down as a as a key example people could look at us and say okay well their their mission must be to create the best brands in the world blah blah blah no you got to go deeper than that like what drives that so if you're familiar with Simon x uh Golden Circle the the why how and what you want to get down to the why that's that's our what
(38:47) our what is we we do it through branding but why do we do what we do is because literally we love helping people brand is the vessel I would still be fulfilled and happy if I was helping people in other ways it just so happens that I became a designer out of Art School blah blah blah and this became my vessel to help people so our mission statement in our company is to unlock the potential in the people around us that's our mission statement that that's hard to get to though you got to keep asking but
(39:16) why right like we do branding but why okay but why but why you get all the way down to oh because we [ __ ] like to help people it makes us happy we want to help people oh okay and then when we can say that we can build off of that okay so customer experience is key within our organization so much so that we we deliver hot sauce uh it's not going to focus well on this uh oh yeah you see the AC at the bottom sauce yep seek to achieve Unforgettable customer experiences it's spell sauce so we made hot sauce and at the end of
(39:52) every project we send every customer a box of sauce that we have locally made it says we care about customer experience this is our final thank you to you and we kind of bring it all back together but we wouldn't be able to know to do those types of things if we were just our mission is to create the Best Brands all right where do you go with that right so like the contre guy the bug company or big Tech series C Series D needs to figure out but at the end of the day like why do you get out of bed that was one of our questions to
(40:23) ourselves like but why do I get out of bed every day it's not to make logos it's not to pick color paletes I like doing that but that's not like why I get out of bed I get out of bed because I want to work with awesome people and help them I want them to go on and succeed and say I can help them um so long answer but that is part of what we're doing in the strategy portion of these projects trying to sus all that out so when we start building we're building with intention we're not just
(40:51) making stuff yeah and that you you you touched on you know some of those visual elements where I really want to dig in with this too because what I want to hammer home is it matters yeah like it's so freaking matters and you've touched on and we've both touched on it here and there with from the Bug Guy to the concrete like we are creatures of we judge books by the cover yeah yeah we are exactly the opposite of the thing that's how we're wired and you can fight it get mad at it not wish you know wish
(41:37) that it weren't true whatever you want to do but that is the truth yeah and the other piece that you haven't said yet but is there is that this these visuals are important from the logo the consistency the colors the the the look in a lot of ways that I want to dig into but yes the Baseline has to be there to support this we're not saying that that's all that matters we're saying that it matters first in the sense of when someone's interacting with your brand brand is what they're first bumping up
(42:15) against and you don't get a chance to show up and be amazing if you don't look the part correct people got to walk through the door right there has to be some version of the front of your restaurant that people say that looks like a nice Italian restaurant I want to walk into that and then hopefully your food lives up to it brand brand brand brand right but you got to get him in the door it can't look like a rundown dump you know yeah and there's there's these short hands right you you were talking about um a
(42:48) company there close to you there there's there's looking good looking professional but also in these visual elements from a from a book cover to a van going down the street there's also some shorthand in oh that looks like a this that looks like a business book or not yes and and that's another piece that I I work with coaches Consultants all the time that's why I'm in this book phase and website phase so much too for folks because it's one thing to like okay that looks kind of cool but it looks like
(43:25) you're in the archery business I don't you you know like or whatever that is or you know you're running a Medieval Times restaurant I don't know what it is but with that font I don't know what's happening here yes if you are a Medieval Times restaurant then you're on you're you're killing it right but if not we've got a problem yeah so imagine I'm telling you all this stuff matters and then I held up my book and the cover looked like a six-year-old made it and like it was made in a day right you
(43:55) wouldn't take anything I'm saying seriously it also has to lookart yeah or yeah if it were completely sharp but it looked like a Sci-Fi novel like I would be what's going on here what's happening doesn't work yeah yeah so where do you start in this phase when when it is either I mean a Rebrand is is a different I imagine you're really you've got some Legacy elements that there that you're going to work with but you know that younger company that newer company or just newer compan easier honestly newer compan is
(44:33) easier cuz it's you can you can really go in any direction there's no Legacy to have to consider uh but there's plenty of rebrands we do where everything is thrown out um but I can give you a clear example I kind of cut you off there but tell me if this is getting to the root I'm going to start to talk very visual now um and I'm going to tie it back to the Core Essence of the things that we were just talking about before more of the happy lovey doy find your essence bull crap uh not bull crap that was just
(45:03) a joke so so we were working with a company called salesloft uh sales loft is really big in the sales Tech space they're like the number two player you got big names out there you got Outreach got salesloft um in working with the sales LOF team and in the strategy phase we did an exercise called the three attributes exercise and in that exercise what we're doing is we're trying to take like 80 different adjectives and and Whittle it down to three that best describe that organization and again this is it feels warm and fuzzy to
(45:35) some of the more technically minded people on these projects but it's helpful and I'll share how now one of their words was sincere as a sales tech company they recognized they don't want to feel like another sales tool that's cold and inhuman and doesn't care about people in a world where sales could feel pretty aggressive right your LinkedIn inbox gets smashed all the time and who knows what's automated what's not automated right so sales especially today needs to feel more human and more
(46:04) sincere that was one of the words now when you get to visuals and you say okay we need to look sincere too well what does looking sincere look like in a in a tech company thankfully the world has evolved and people are willing to flex and not just be boring and blue uh fun fact sales off was blue we took them more to this like um this really beautiful green there was deep greens there was vibrant greens but we went green green is generally more approachable doesn't feel so Tech feels a little bit more human it also
(46:42) represents growth you think of leaves and grass and nature but it also represents money right so there's a tie-in but going even further on the the sincere word the typography the the actual logo and for them is ended up being a logo type which means their logo is their name there's no abstract mark That's accompanying that there it was a a very specific choice we made on the type choice for that to match sincere so if you're thinking Tech you're thinking clean it needs to look Advanced Progressive technical which is generally
(47:20) a sand serif type phase no do hickeys off the edges we'll dumb it down um for them did the exact opposite we did not pick a technically driven type of type face it's a type face that you actually wouldn't see in that industry at all it was actually a pretty bold leap for them to say yes to that but it's so closely aligned to this idea we got to feel sincere and we got to feel sincere everywhere not just highly technical website but we're sincere when we're on the phone with you no that's
(47:52) not how brand Works consistent you used the word earlier it has to be everywhere the color feels more sincere the tight face choices feel more sincere the custom photography not stock photography with people in suits that does not feel sincere custom photography photographer goes out to the office gets people in real life settings smiling being normal humans right then you get the story and The Narrative of what this new brand is going to do and you get that on their website now that really captures the essence without that word now this is
(48:24) being a little bit dramatic but without that word how can you do that right you can you get lost these projects are so big it's impossible to stay rooted all right we're making a logo and all of a sudden three weeks in after iteration after iteration and baby step in a different direction you are off sincere if you don't have something to ground you you end up with something that visually you like you put it all back together you're like this [ __ ] doesn't even make sense together right like somehow we got this
(48:53) green but we got this highly technical logo and who what are we doing what are we doing those silly three words will bring you back there so those are some examples other things we did in there if we want to stay on visuals for a minute I'm going really long um pattern language within that visual identity right visual identity colors type face photography uh you can have illustration Styles um we did these what felt like handdrawn lines again sincere human human touch this [ __ ] feels real it's not these hard an hard
(49:25) lines and sharp going to poke you everything is soft um again all of that is derived from decisions that are made in strategy even something as simple as a word like sincere in a onh hour exercise right you you never know what's going to come out of those um one more example you can cut it out if you want uh we worked with a company called Rose they make spreadsheets y'all think about spreadsheets I lived in the South I can say y'all uh they makes they're trying to take on Excel you don't take on Excel by trying to
(50:00) look like another Excel right you've got to be different you got to figure out why you're different for them they want to be different they Embrace this idea of like we're nerds and we want to have fun their spreadsheet one of their words um was in around this idea of like magic it's magical in the way that you can pull apis into the cells and and all this stuff their brand took such an interesting twist with all these Wizards hands um the color pal uh the way that it talks about its services but it's still trustworthy
(50:31) right like you could do that stuff it could still be a powerful powerfully developed spreadsheet product right so that I would just share some of those points on like how that early strategy work informs the actual visuals you never just want to say well we're trying to beat Excel just make us look cool right like literally what does that mean okay I could I could actually make you look cool it's probably not going to work though right and it won't be treed who you are you won't be able to live it out
(51:02) you won't be able to live out your promise because it's just you're going to be like well it looks really classy but we're kind of like not that we feel like we're faking it yeah and that's just like everything else is going to trickle down through the organization with W with that feel and not and not being there that's right and that's it's interesting because you know the same way the the end goal of the brand itself is to be this filter and this North Star that everyone okay is that on brand is that
(51:30) decision on brand is that yes it's those three questions do exactly that during that brand process it lets you those three words rather um it lets you you know have that filter and that just like you said like keep coming back okay this is cool but does it fit this and does it fit this and and I imagine it gets messy really quickly with different hands in the foris people have to decide do they like those words can't you can't hinge the whole thing on three words either right you have to say well well our
(52:00) customer base accept this you can't let them determine everything but you at least have to ask yourself like is this just too wild if we're for a law firm rebranding and all of our clients are RX we can't have wizards hands everywhere maybe in a different Market you could you know maybe you know so you have to at least ask yourself that I mean at the end of the day there's certainly like if if you don't believe us you're just not going to believe us of course that's right but I I find myself in the
(52:32) last couple of years being in this space of trying to figure out a way to help and convince and Usher along this idea of for B2B Brands and specifically on LinkedIn you live on LinkedIn I live on LinkedIn we see it all the time the boring upon boring upon boring that is there like you don't have to be a Vaudeville you know act and be crazy correct but bring some life bring some Humanity into your Brands how can we help these folks who feel like they're in a boring industry and who are you know scared to death to do anything
(53:21) outside the lines because they're in this Legacy industry or something how can we help them or is it a lost cause how can we help them nothing's ever a lost cause in my book that's a strength and a weakness but yeah carry on no but that that's exactly it how do we help them come to the come to the light a little bit and and start to what's a small step hey I'm not ready for entire Rebrand but I I know I need some Humanity in my look in my company and my feel how what's that baby step
(53:54) that we can get them headed in the right direction yeah I think every it's it's important for everybody to understand like you don't need to completely reinvent yourself right there don't have to be giant projects and the examples I'm giving they are because they're these Mega companies that have gone through mergers and Acquisitions and you know they're they're chasing a certain rabbit not everybody's chasing that rabbit but it's very simple coming back to what we just talked about a minute ago it's very
(54:21) simple for people to sit down any business owner and say what are the three characteristics that are at the core of my business regardless of what the business offering is like what is that spend some time with that and then just look at what's out in the world and just ask yourself like is it is it saying showing and feeling that way you don't have to change everything you might say like well yeah the way I interact with people is exactly those words I landed on but my website kind of boring kind of stale
(54:52) where can you add a little bit of love on one of those words and I'm I'm just talking like right now I'm not even talking like revamp your whole website change the opening statement maybe it feels super busy and you're never business se you know it's it's kind of funny right like I keep coming back to this like local contractor thing but maybe that's more relatable for everybody I don't know um my head keeps going there too like a landscaping company a construction find somebody
(55:16) online it feels it feels all serious and Bland but then the the person shows up and they're awesome right they got a ton of Personality you're like [ __ ] if that was on your site like it would really capture who you are and it be so much better uh so you can do baby steps there are also ways to baby step your way into better design and to hire Freelancers like these things don't have to be crazy expensive now but what it does require is like stepping away from your business for a minute and actually just noodling
(55:47) on the disconnect that doesn't take money all that takes is time when people pay us to go through these rebrands I think what they often um Overlook is this idea that they are going to get now that accountability partner to sit down with them and do what I'm telling people to do here with a partner and help extract out of them that's so valuable right that's why that's why there are therapists right let me sit down I'll tell you the things I'm okay well did you think about this did you think about that that is just as
(56:17) much of the exercise as the outcomes PE people could start that process alone you can sit down what do I think I'm not representing well what why do I really get out of bed every day what do I care about am I trying to act to business E when that world is quickly going away right like I'm 45 now I still think that I'm young but like at some point people my age are essentially all the buyers look I got I got skateboards on the wall and [ __ ] right like I don't need super busy I can still pay a
(56:51) premium for services and hire people and pay for B2B SAS tools for my company and not have them feel like 1980s IBM that that world is kind of gone people are still kind of holding on to that only out of fear but the leaders in B2B Tech are breaking that mold fast the biggest if you go through all those verticals any forest or uh you know like people in the upper right quadrant they're going to be loud and proud and they're going to be leaning on Brands bold colors vibrant stance strong opinions they're not just trying to like
(57:26) oh I don't want to disrupt I'm just going to I'm just going to be over here and stay quiet and and I don't want to break anything like the path to success is not not not breaking things that's like stale and tired like don't go don't go bat you crazy but the path to success is trying and breaking things and brand is one of those steps you got to take you got to get out and do that oh yeah yeah I love that and just just remember your humanity and that person that's going to be sitting across from you your sales rep
(58:05) the buy button they're human as well correct and that's and that's actually a superpower it's a great gift because you have connection points because they're a human and we as humans like things and don't like things we you can tap into these elements and gain you know customers that you you never would have you could triple your business because because you tap into that and you Embrace this aspect of humanity through all of this and it's huge we're we're a great example of that
(58:47) exact point which is to say when people call us and they talk with chanina or will on our team they're kind of the front line of talking to incoming prospects a lot of the feedback we get people that hired us and maybe people that also decideed maybe we can't do it now but we'll come back later it is I enjoyed talking with you all so much it felt very down toe felt very relatable it felt very practical you made this not scary for me that's a human thing right and that is us being on brand right
(59:18) we're here to help people I could have created a perception in a business that we're going to be the highest flyer we're going to be this toen uh award-winning New York City agency Vibe right but like what we know to be true is like a lot of people don't want that that's not to knock New York to the agencies but like a lot of people don't want that they want something like they just want to feel I'm talking to normal everyday person look at me right like I didn't dress up trying to look any
(59:46) particular way other than myself for this call and that's how we operate as a business and we get so much praise on that people see that and to your point you could do that in any business I was just meeting this is another great example I was just meeting with one of our new clients they're massive they're growing like at an insane rate it's going to be a name that when it drops this year a ton of people in our space be Tob Tech they all know this company I do CEO to CEO meetings at the beginning of the project to have kind of
(1:00:17) a keep it real hey hey you excited you nervous here's where I see CEOs go sideways let me try to help you off the Record kind of like let's just have it keep it real conversation so I can give you as much information and protect you from your own ailments potentially as possible but going into that I asked the CMO hey Le what's the vibe of the CEO is he chill like I I want to make sure that I'm showing up appropriate too right I don't want to I don't want to look like this if all of a sudden he's going to be
(1:00:45) fully suited up and he doesn't take me serious she's like oh he's totally going to be your Vibe he always has a hat on backwards too dude loves sports loves this he's kind of more of like an extreme sport guy I'm like this guy is going to be my jam my point being that's today's world be yourself just be yourself being yourself is living out your brand you're not going to fit everybody but you're not supposed to right a brand is not supposed to reach everybody unless you literally are the
(1:01:14) microsofts and the apples of the world they have to try to appeal to everybody we small businesses don't you appeal and you attract the people that are more like you and again that is living out your brand I would hate it every day if I showed up faking it in a suit trying to get high-profile clients that would suck for me I literally would hate that oh yeah yeah and it's it's this great dance you talked about earlier too of you know the the threepers company who's just starting off they've got one
(1:01:44) product but it's this it's this balance of okay looking the part of a bigger company of that next level you want to get to yes without there's not a faking it again we've we're all talking about the substance is there right you can you know you can deliver and not being afraid to to jump in especially these days with the help of a focus lab of a b you know you can really position yourself visually in everything around to just have that Vibe of a company at that you know two levels above maybe where you are but you know
(1:02:23) you can be there correct and it's so important to to do that because it's just again it's another way you got to get your foot in the door so that you can even have a chance to show up and it's it's it's blending that and I say balancing because it's balancing that with what you were just talking about of being yourself being whatever vibe that three person company has right you can do both I promise you yes you can absolutely do both you can look like you series B but you're only seat stage and we actually
(1:02:56) people have people tell us that man after the work we did people are you can tell they're approaching us differently we're able to get into rooms and conversations we couldn't get into before they're not lying they're not saying their series B they just look so sharp and so put together that people take them more serious there's nothing wrong with that again it's not deception but it is a strong game of perception and really what people need to to really recognize is like your brand is either
(1:03:22) working for you or against you there's no middle ground it's either pulling you forward or it's walking you backwards and you need to figure out which of those is it doing if you don't know the answer it's walking you backwards let's be clear exactly right and that's not a sales pish to say everybody's going to hire us it's just again my goal is to help illuminate this idea to people I don't care how they solve it if it's us not us on the road whatever it's just so important I think
(1:03:51) a lot of people miss how impactful brand can be which is why I'm standing on my soapbox just trying to help people understand if anything spend $12 and buy my book and read the first chapter right that will be worth your $12 spend and you can Chuck the rest exactly just to get it through and embra like let seep seep in a little bit into your Bo cuz you'll hear other examples of people that are not me that are past customers that did not believe true hori examples all that and you'll be like oh all right I see it maybe it's
(1:04:25) not for me yet but I understand what they're saying I just I cringe to think of a world where people don't care about it and they get 40 years into business and then they kind of retire don't retire and it's like oh there's so much missed opportunity there so much yeah big time I want to wrap up I have this one question as I was going through the book and everything to that I'd love to get your your your take on is what's what's a bad reason to be going through a Rebrand you know have you encountered
(1:04:58) those folks who are like ye you're trying to solve something with a Rebrand that's not a thing have you encountered that side of things that's a fantastic question I don't know that I've ever been asked that so I'm going to I think I'm going to take it in two different directions I don't know if this is a bad reason but it's the wrong reason a lot of people will come to us and say I need a new website right so we you would consider that a symptom that's a symptom of a larger problem the brand is broken if
(1:05:31) we're going to go through we're going to make your website all new we're going to try to figure out everything new that you need to say but that's essentially doing brand work on your website let's step all the way back and come back to the root it doesn't take that much longer right you're talking about you want to run this business for another 10 20 years let's add another month or two God forbid let's slow down let's let's address the brand in all the ways and
(1:05:54) we'll bring all that forward to the website by the time we get to the website everything will be decided colors type language story product offer blah blah blah and we'll have reason and rules to build it all out instead of just making a pretty new website I just got one of these calls yesterday right we need a pretty new website man that's a tough call to walk people backwards because like they're not there mentally right so to to them it sounds like you're trying to add in more work you're trying to drive the
(1:06:18) price up I don't need that trust me I'm not okay so that would be that's more of a symptom play I don't know it's not clear to me what would be a truly bad reason to Rebrand right you've got reasons go ahead and maybe not a maybe maybe it's even more of a you just don't need that I think that's what came up in my head is is maybe if someone's just and I don't mean a I don't mean a Comcast over to Xfinity kind re even not even going down that road but a more of a you know oh I'm the
(1:06:58) CEO and I just got this position and like let's just Rebrand or you know is it and wondering if you've encountered to are they trying to fix culture with a Rebrand like a new logo and any I guess that's where my head was have you encountered any of those sort of I'll call them wrong reasons just because it's like that's not what this is about it's not a fix for that yeah so I have to be hyper self-aware and recognize the my own bubble which is like brand can solve a lot of things so that's why it's
(1:07:33) actually hard for me like if there's a cultural issue brand can help solve that in my opinion and we could spend another 30 minutes talking about how like it can affect all these things sometimes though a client might come to us and we actually feel like they're maybe their brand is not all that off or underperforming and even if you want to go deeper and think visually sometimes working with a company like it's going to be hard to make that better than what it is I remember one specific project like s years
(1:08:04) ago me and the designer are looking at each other like how are we going to make that better their their stuff already looks like apple how are we going and they want to look like apple how can we make it look more like apple right so I wouldn't say that that's like a bad reason and ultimately we did add some new assets and brought like a an elevated look to it but it wasn't dynamically different um where some of the other projects are just straight like home runs right you know you're going to crush it because
(1:08:32) the bar is so low and there's so much opportunity I don't know that there's a bad reason other than like you don't need it people that come to us and maybe this is why I'm struggling nobody comes to us really if they don't need it necessarily we only hear from the people that are like having trouble recruiting right that's a big one if you don't look like an Italian restaurant people people want to walk into you probably can't recruit servers to work there because there's no you
(1:09:01) know like you you need plan to uplift all those things people want to work for Tesla I know that's maybe becoming in question with Elon as he gets Wilder but they want to work there because of what the brand stands for they don't really want to work for like Chevy what does Chevy stand for I don't know but I know Tesla wants to build electric cars and an effort to help the planet that's a mission people can get behind that's brand that's the brand I think the the answer you gave first is
(1:09:29) actually the best one without realizing that's that's the one I I wanted in that as my head went to that I think that's the the biggest answer is not a bad reason to Rebrand but an incomplete reason symptom related exactly we need um yeah generally they're going to be like we need a new website uh our sales decks are outdated we're showing up at a conference and we need a new conference Booth but we're working with all these Legacy assets and Legacy narrative Legacy it's all the symptoms that people
(1:10:00) see those would be the wrong those are the wrong they're the wrong lens to look through but it still leads them to the right area of opportunity which would be brand yeah and and that's the piece is it your job your team's job to guide them like yes you do need new sales material we agree with you we can see it but it's deeper than that and here's why and and that's such an in I'm fascinated with all of it because it it does it gets into then well you know how how is your recruiting
(1:10:37) these days how are your s you know as you can start to answer like I didn't come to you for that I know just curious you know Gathering the data and you can start to build and then you can show them here's how this could help all of it you're going to go through almost the same effort let's do this like you talked about earlier with exle do it right don't Banda it don't come in and bandaid a website and bandaid some sales materials or like just step back and do it right the investment is not that much
(1:11:05) more it doesn't take that much more time overall um and from a timeline perspective it'll take more mental energy because you're not maybe ready to step that far back into why does your company exist and what is its mission and vision and I should also be clear like sometimes we go back and we do some of that retooling and it's very efficient because that founder owner CEO whatever is pretty clear but we're at least going to go back there and double check that all right it's okay okay okay now we're back over here
(1:11:33) good instead of what we don't want to do is build flashy websites that don't move the needle we could do that right we could be the type of company that doesn't care about customer experience and helping people and just say you need a website we'll give you a website and laugh in the background and say that's not really going to help them but they want to pay us that's just not us we don't want to do that so we'll stick our neck out there and be like I don't think you need that you need this other thing
(1:11:55) and they can either tell us to screw off or say gez that was really helpful thank you yep I love it all right so somebody's listening who is that person that decision maker out there a company that they're working for or own who who is just your sweet spot of a client a conversation and then how do they reach out to you so our primary Point person on every project which kind of becomes our ICP if we want to use B2B SAS language or I guess modern day kind of business language our customer profile really is
(1:12:32) a chief marketing officer they're generally the person that has either been in that company long enough to see that the brand is failing it or they've just been brought on because that brand is failing and now that founder is like we're going to bring somebody in they're really going to act on this but very adjacent to them we have Founders right so sometimes they don't even have that marketing person yet but they're startup and they understand the value they are wired that way to go back to that point but we have
(1:13:00) a secret agent the secret agent is designers writers and strategists it is the people that have to act most often on behalf of that brand in create assets with that brand that feel the pain sometimes most acutely so when that Rebrand topic comes up maybe at the higher level seite they're saying I follow this company I've been following them for 5 years they do kickass work you should absolutely hire them so they kind of troan horse us into the conversation where maybe we weren't existent and now we're one of five
(1:13:32) people being um kind of interviewed for the job so that those are kind of our people right there that's our tribe yeah and and you've got that's what's so beautiful with the book too is like that's a it's a tool for them for those secret agents to like here take take a read read this book yeah you don't have to trust me read this book look at site look at these examples yeah yeah let me be really clear in my in the book pitch here the first two to three chapters is written more to the CEO and the founder
(1:14:04) right so if you're a marketer or anybody else listening you're like I can't get my founder over the hump all you tell them is just spend one night and read a chapter or two and then be done because really the rest of the book the next eight chapters are written to the marketing person the person that's going to execute on the work and it's not trying to convince them that Brand's important they already know that I don't need to write that to that person so I write to the first profile the rest is how we do our
(1:14:29) process this is for them to read that and say oh this is how they go through strategy this is what they think about market research this is why they don't do detailed market research oh this is how they're going to go through the design process so they can read that and know exactly what they're going to get from us it's no longer a pitch it's purely A playbook and if they say I like this Playbook that's what I want to work with it's our exact process I put it out there which means a bunch of other
(1:14:52) agencies buy it too and they're like I want to know how they do their stuff that's great I don't care it aligns to our brand helping people I don't give a [ __ ] I love it I love it man this has been phenomenal I I I really appreciate the the time and letting me weave and ramble and and all of this CU I just I I love this stuff so much and it it I just I try to preach it from the rafters I'm somebody who is I can I can work my way through some Design Elements and make but I'm more of that like this looks
(1:15:28) good I couldn't explain to you why this is profession but I promise you I trust my taste at least you know and and so i' love to to have conversations with with folks like you who who have that language and have that description and you know you have that graphic design insight to know like well it's because this is I love thatu because it's based out better and things are smaller and they're not big and clunky and the colors are not fighting each other and yeah yeah all that all that fun stuff so
(1:15:59) how how do people reach out and and connect with you yeah so the best primary place is LinkedIn surprise um find me on find me on LinkedIn Bill Kenny but you can find me on basically any platform at bills for Sam Kenny K NE y That's my handle for Twitter Instagram but I spend most of my time on LinkedIn and you can find the book on conquerour rebrand.
(1:16:26) com fantastic Bill thank you so much thanks for being here and for doing the work you do a pleasure thank you for caring about this important subject absolutely and we'll see you all next time thanks so much for tuning in and being a part of this show if you want help creating Authority building video content or even a client generating show of your own go to mediale leads.
(1:16:53) com and let's connect I'll talk to you soon on the next strategy and [Music] action this show is powered by media leads to get your next great podcast produced go to Media leo.com